TOPIC: New HA filler claiming to last up to 5 years

So he's switched to using a cannula and has now started using two entry points. You could say his technique is evolving! He wouldn't change things for a laugh, he's doing it to get better results. Technique and experience with the particular filler the Dr is using is clearly very important. With longer lasting or permanent fillers it's even more important than with reversible HA fillers.

I think there is more to it than safety profile (where HA is safer) or suitability for penis enlargement (where PMMA/Ellanse are better). You also have to combine the right clinic/Dr with the product. I don't think Androfill is the right place to get a longer term or permanent filler. That's not a slight on Androfill or Dr Horn, but I'm simply pointing out that with a non reversible product you need to to spend much more time with the patient and though it's technically non surgical, you pretty much go into theater. When I had PMMA, it was a 2 hour appointment. I had to get into a surgical gown, you get local anesthetic, Dr C has an assistant and it's done in a surgical suite. I think it's a similar situation with Dr Oates. It's because they have to get it right as the stakes are higher. They spend years honing their techniques. Whilst HA is just a case of applying some emla cream, then jumping on the table in a office and being done in 10 mins. If it doesn't go well it can easily be fixed. So the different types of products are more suitable to different business models. If you mix the the wrong product with the wrong business you end up with the type of Ellanse results you see posted on Moorgates website.

[There were other's who had women make comments as well, and I'm sure I can find the quote, so it's not just in his head. This was your patient and after reading his comments in total, including the part about it being insanely expensive to keep up, I just don't find it encouraging.]

It is '1,100 / $1,400 to try 6ml of Cutegel in the UK using the method in the video earlier in the thread. If you don't like it then you will have lost $1,400 - and importantly this is most likely all you will have lost (in other words no damage done to the penis).
The patient you refer to had a huge amount of filler in a very ambitious augmentation and the result looks impressive. But a big gain requires a lot of maintenance. You can stick to 0.25 - 0.75 Inch increase in Girth and it is more sensible, economical (initially and to maintain), and possibly feels slightly more natural with a thinner layer of filler. More than this and the % penis to filler ratio is going down.

We have had 1 or 2 complete dissolves over the past 3 years & 1,100 patients. One who had HA dissolved is mediatps
It is possible there are unsatisfied who simply let it all dissolve away naturally and don't inform the clinic.
The complaints I get are 1. It has gone too fast (often swelling subsiding). 2. Irregularity. 3. Underwhelmed by the size gain.

Androfill wrote:
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Hi, thanks for answering questions on this forum.

Could you share your opinion on the price of fillers and how they will change over the next few years? Do you feel the price will stabilise at the current price or will they decrease as they become more popular. Say in 5 years how much will 10ml of voluma be?

Also, what is the standard/economy filler advertised on the Androfill website at '1650 per 10ml? thanks

Ok guys, I feel the need to chime in here.

I have had work done with Dr H and I was very impressed. He can come across as a little moody but I trust him as an expert in his field.

I also think Francis is genuinely offering some good information here.

Having had 18ml of HA with Androfill over 2 years and not really having the accordion effect and now going to Italy and having 10ml of PMMA and having the accordion really badly I do believe it is all about where you inject. This is why I have been asking about how the different fillers bind/interact with the shaft. My assumption, based on my differing experiences had been that HA actually bonded to your shaft in someway which is why the skin moved more freely over it. I now believe that actually the PMMA I have is injected too superficially and so just moves wherever the skin goes. This is what I can gather from what Francis is saying here. Francis I may book an appointment to come in and see if Dr. Horn can look and judge what has gone on here, if thats ok?

I am very much regretting having taken the risk that I did. I think there is a lot of great superficial information about different types of fillers, their dangers, etc but not enough about the details of how they are injeced within the penile anatomy. I think for uncircumcised guys this is of paramount importance as we have lots of movement going on down there and so the correct layer is really important. This kind of information really helps us understand how we(uncircumcised guys) should go about our PE

Below are four photos. The two orange ones demonstrate the effects of the accordion effect right now after 10ml of PMMA. The other two are towards the end of 8ml of HA there isnt a huge amount left but you can see that even with the tight forekin pulled back the HA still remains high up the shaft. You can vaguely see it on the top left. I wish I had taken photos like this after the extra 10ml of HA as the effect was the same. The larger quantity of HA stayed higher up the shaft. Now this i believe has nothing to do with the filler but where it was placed.

Ellanse may or may not be more likely to cause complications than any other Dermal Filler.
But dermal fillers do cause complications.

Filler migration is one specific risk in the penis that happens not infrequently.

A patient called me after 1 year saying that a piece of HA had 'broken off' and moved to the underside of the shaft and was now causing him pain during sex, so he had just stopped having sex. He asked if anything could be done and was relieved that the HA could be dissolved away, as he thought he had to wait until all the HA went on its own.

Had it been Ellanse, I would not have felt good reminding him that there is nothing that can be done for 3 more years.

I hope Dr Oates does write more about addressing complications. I don't think Dr Oates is a Urologist, but I see one Urologist and a surgeon on the Morganstern website.

Dr Ralph in the UK would be an excellent Urologist to ask because he does a lot of work removing fillers from the penis (mainly self-injected paraffin but also other substances), and he has no penis enlargement business so he should be impartial. I will write to him asking specifically for his views (I already know Dr Horn's view that Ellanse is high risk).

A fundamental problem I don't see a clear solution to is how some of the basic issues associated with dermal fillers, of any type, can be dealt with when the filler can't be dissolved. Hyalase is a useful safety net for many of these problems, but only with HA.

Further, most of the discussion and formal study of Dermal Filler complications is in the context of small volumes, and not in the penis. But the context here is 10-30ml in a sensitive organ which no one wants a problem with. To be able to dissolve away many of the complications changes the risk profile significantly.

HA = safe (in large part because it can be dissolved), Ellanse / PMMA = less safe (in large part because you are stuck with some of the same problems, but this time they can't be dissolved).
The distinction is obvious but worth repeating ad nauseam.

Androfill wrote: Filler migration is one specific risk in the penis that happens not infrequently.A patient called me after 1 year saying that a piece of HA had 'broken off' and moved to the underside of the shaft and was now causing him pain during sex, so he had just stopped having sex. He asked if anything could be done and was relieved that the HA could be dissolved away, as he thought he had to wait until all the HA went on its own.

You're giving one single example, but you must have stats on how many patients you treated in total, and how many had this issue? I have not heard this before, and would like to know the stats. Everything has risk, but people decide to proceed or not based on statistics, not a single anecdotal case. If that were the case, people would read darkstaff's pmma experience and nobody would have it done!

Androfill wrote: I hope Dr Oates does write more about addressing complications. I don't think Dr Oates is a Urologist, but I see one Urologist and a surgeon on the Morganstern website.

I hope he does as well.

Androfill wrote: I already know Dr Horn's view that Ellanse is high risk.

Yes, but he still does the procedure if patients request it, and has had good results (as has Dr Oats). Does he tell patients in advance that if something goes wrong he can't do anything? Or does he discuss with them what the specific odds are and actually have a some plan to treat possible outcomes?

Androfill wrote: HA = safe (in large part because it can be dissolved), Ellanse / PMMA = less safe (in large part because you are stuck with some of the same problems, but this time they can't be dissolved). The distinction is obvious but worth repeating ad nauseam.

Everyone knows that, but you're on a forum where for years guys are opting for pmma (which is permanent) on a daily basis, based on a long history of good and some negative outcomes. Saying HA is safer is not going to convince a lot of guys to opt for it after doing years of research, and realizing that many guys spend a lot of money on HA and have it dissolved because it's "squishy" and feels like a "padded dick" ... yes there are some lucky guys who are OK with it (and have the $$$), but there are a lot of guys who are not, and in some locations guys are paying 10K USD for 15 ml ... which last 1.5 years, and which they may not be satisfied with.As long as there are alternatives like pmma or ellanse that last longer and feel more natural (I take this as confirmed), then people will opt for these over HA unless it is shown by reported / documented cases (with pics), clinical studies, and other real data that it's not worth the risk. Note that in Gary Alter's editorial comment on the pmma study, his main concern was what may happen "a decade" down the road ... at least for ellanse that's not a concern.

www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(16)30328-9/abstractI'm not arguing there is no risk, I'm just asking you to contribute actual data and stats on those risks, if you have them.

You need to have a scan to confirm whether or not you've actually had PMMA.

aleksk wrote:
Tell us more. How reliable your source is? At what stage are the trials?

. Heard from a plastic surgeon who is a high volume purchaser. Sounded like it's going to take years to get approval in the US. Maybe the products will hit other markets first, but I don't know how that works. I'm guessing this industry is going to balloon quickly, but experienced injectors are difficult to train. If I was a new doctor looking to get rich, I'd be alll over getting into this now.

My personal experience with 10ml real Voluma within the first month was that it was only somewhat noticeable when not Erect. When Erect, it was hard and not noticeable at all. After the first month, I seemed to have metabolized most of it. That, or it moved deep in my groin due to repeat sex with a tight partner, I honestly don't know. Or maybe it's all there and my gains are just super slight? Sounds unlikely. I still have a very thin layer (maybe 1/8 to 1/4' in areas) that only I can feel, but it would take a highly experienced eye for anyone else to notice it. I am considering another round to see if my body will keep it longer this time (I'm only a few months out from my first procedure and have to say it was great initially). Otherwise, Voluma might not be for me.

Androfill wrote:
Yes come in tomorrow from 5:00pm until 8:00pm just call in and Dr Horn will tell you which layer it is in and if he thinks it is a problem.

If it were me, I would not just ask Dr Horn, I would also make an appointment with Dr Ralph on Harley Street.
We direct patients to Dr Ralph when they come in with weird things injected like paraffin or (less often) if they have pmma issues.

www.londonurology.org.uk/consultants/mr-david-ralph/

Can you feel it just under the skin, like it is attaching itself to the outer skin?
See Dr Horn and Dr Ralph if you are worried.

I can't come in tomorrow as im in Paris with work until Sunday. I am free next week on Monday, Wednesday and Friday? Thanks for the link to Dr. Ralph its good to know there is a specialist who is on hand If I need him.

aleksk wrote: If I were cut, i would go for Ellanse.

mediatps wrote: I've just had 10ml of PMMA with this italian dr and the accordion effect is really bad! I think there is a difference between how the two products attached themselves to my shaft. I dont think enough is mentioned about how these different fillers actually interact with the penis tissue. We only know that HA absorbs water and PMMA/ Ellanse promote collagen. There is soo much more about what they do in my opinion which effects results that we don't mention or know.

As @aleksk and @chester know, I opted for Ellanse because my take on HA is the same as @chester's and I didn't want PMMA. I had 12 ml and will go back for 8 more, and when I'm done I will document everything. I had a couple of minor issues that are being dealt with, and only then will I go back for 2nd round probably in January.The only thing I will say now, because it's related to what we're discussing here is about the texture. In both Flaccid and Erect states I literally cannot tell its there, except for extra Girth. When Flaccid at 4" length its feels the same as before and is symmetric, and when 6" Erect it's rock hard and symmetric. I'm at 10 weeks, so 80 percent of the CMC carrier should be gone, yet the Girth gain has been constant the entire time. I can't tell the difference from a week or two out when the initial swelling subsided to what it is now. It seems to have been be a seamless replacement of the carrier with collagen.Yes, there are lots of factors, and I think we need to factor out cut vs uncut, vs all the rest--type of filler, skin tightness, how its injected, metabolism, lots of other factors. But I would have thought that injected the same way in the same person, that PMMA and Ellanse would be very similar, and I know a lot of guys have said their PMMA feels natural. I can't speak for PMMA or being uncut, so I have no idea about the feeling that it's moving under the skin. I can only say that based on the 2 reports I read here (subtle77 and glam82) that Ellanse meets (actually exceeds) my expectations in terms of the way it feels and integrates.

You can't use that basic "sausage filler" technique with permanent or long term fillers! Otherwsie you end up with result like those on the Moorgate website. Why do you think so many of Dr N's patients don't look so great? She works alone, use one entry point and just molds the stuff. I know Dr Oates has his own technique that can't speak of, but Dr C divides the penis into 6 sections and uses a injection gun to more accurately measure the amount of filler being injected at each point. It's a much longer and more considered process than what is shown in the video above. It involves several entry points, requires an assistant and rolling instruments to smooth as he works. It's really not a case of making a hole, pumping it in and then molding it into place with hands.

Androfill wrote: For HA yes. From the first 1,000 we had:
- 7 granuloma
- 5 infections
- 1 allergic reaction
- 2 significant filler migrations

Thanks for the info!

Androfill wrote: It should not be squishy, if it is then it might not have been the right HA, or the filler injection or aftercare was poor.

Well, costa said it was, and you guys did his. He had it dissolved. The report of squishiness is "not infrequent" from all the cases I've read about, and guys I personally communicated with who had it. And this is voluma. This was also the major complaint in the original korean HA study. Dunno about ultra deep. Why are so many practices using voluma if this is so good?

Androfill wrote: No problems from Ellanse yet but the sample size is tiny. At least 100 cases in a sample over 2-3 years... would that be reasonable.

Thanks again for the info. Combined with Dr oats almost 2 years experience plus morganster 7 months, so far so good it seems. I hope it continues to go this way, because I believe like @chester that it is superior in terms long lasting and feeling 100 percent natural when Flaccid and Erect.

I think Dr Kim's website's concerns over Ellanse are total BS. No where in the world will you ever see so much real life data on PE as here. We've seen hundreds of patients with PMMA, which works exactly the same as Ellanse and Radiesse, yet as far as I'm aware, there has never been a case of a result which caused a problem similar to Peyronies. I'm not one of those guys who read some threads and asked some questions before getting my procedure. I read every single PMMA thread on both this and the old forum and I did this within the last 6 months.

Of course lumps are a potential problem, especially in an organ like the penis, but that's why good Dr's are conservative in their approach and advise post op massaging. Dr Oates doesn't inject 40cc of Ellanse at once for a reason.